Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Blimey!
Would be very interesting to know if anyone else has encountered this recently. If it is a new policy, then I'm changing my holiday plans! If on the other hand I've been running this risk for years, then I may continue to do so.
Little Knot
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Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
HWMBO and crew have this evening arrived in Vlissingen with our boat (which will be kept at Kortgene on the Veerse Meer). After 21 hours of motoring/motor sailing in much heavier weather than predicted, I haven't got the heart to ring him up and tell him to look out for the Dutch customs.
Fingers crossed!
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
I am fairly convinced I had water in red diesel from a marina a whie ago so now I fill up with jerry cans from petrol stations. The amount I use is quite small so it is just about practical and the cost is not an issue.
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Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
I am sure that as the fuel was bought in the UK, it is in free circulation and as such if there is a Law in the Netherlands which prohibits its importation that law would not be upheld in the European Court.
I wonder what would have happend if they had said that they wanted to see or speak to a lawer before paying any fine.
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Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
I don't know for sure but my guess is that the Dutch authorities were being over officious and a polite statement along the lines of 'Please take me to the police station where I would like to talk to your boss' might have got a different response.
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
The question is whether the EU, having removed the UK's red deisel derrogation as of 01 Jan 2007, agrees with our useless govermnet not doing anything about it until October 2008? Has our government got EU agreement for us to continue to use red diesel into 2008? If so we should all be issued with a copy of such agreement. If not, our government is forcing us to break EU law and should be taken to court for doing so.
Just wait until July/August, I'm sure the authorities in another well visited EU country will want to start checking our diesel tanks too....
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
This is a bit like the Portuguese Government totally ignoring EC VAT regulations on imported boats and cars.
Portugal make 100s of millions of euros a year out of illegally demanding Portuguese VAT at 21% from fully paid boat and car owners, yet Portugal continues to do this because the EEC only fine them 10 million euros each year - so its a good earner............
Basically disgusting but as it says in the article - who do you complain to?
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Here is the text of a letter we had from the EU Directorate General for Taxation and Customs that up until Nov 2008 red diesel bought in UK can be used for propulsion anywhere in the EU
Hope its of use
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Further to my e-mail of 4th April, I have received a reply from the
Directorate-General for Taxation and Customs. Their finding are as
follows:
The United Kingdom' s derogation from the general provisions of
the energy taxation directive(1), allowing the UK to apply a reduced rate of
excise duty to fuel used in navigation in private pleasure craft, expired by
the end of 2006. The Commission communication of 30 November
2006(2) explains the reasons why the Commission did not propose an
extension of the derogation in question, as requested by the UK.
Therefore, from January 2007 onwards, the general provisions of the
energy taxation directive also apply for the United Kingdom.
However, the UK does not intend to reflect these changes until November
2008. HM Revenue & Customs' web-site carries a budget note (BN) on the expiry of derogations,
see:
which explicitly quotes the 1st November 2008 as the date by which fuel used for the purpose of private pleasure flying/boating will no longer benefit from the current reduced and exempt rates of duty.
According to the Community excise legislation and the jurisprudence of
the European Court of Justice, in case of fuel transported in the normal
fuel storage tank, the excise duty is chargeable in the Member State of
acquisition according to the national rules. It falls upon the Commission
to enforce the compliance of national legislation with Community law.
Consequently, in the meantime, people can acquire red diesel in
the UK and use it legally in another member state of the European Union, if
transported in the normal fuel storage tank.
I hope this is of assistance.
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
[ QUOTE ]
This is a bit like the Portuguese Government totally ignoring EC VAT regulations on imported boats and cars.
Portugal make 100s of millions of euros a year out of illegally demanding Portuguese VAT at 21% from fully paid boat and car owners, yet Portugal continues to do this because the EEC only fine them 10 million euros each year - so its a good earner............
Basically disgusting but as it says in the article - who do you complain to?
[/ QUOTE ]
Under what circumstances? I have not read any reports of Portugal demanding VAT from VAT paid boats.
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Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Why oh why do we play ball with these EU idiots, we fought them for 300 years and beat the lot now we roll over at every whim they may have. GET US OUT OF EUROPE
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Customs and police are two different things, so I don't think going to the police would help much. I think a better option would be to contact the ANWB, the dutch tourist organisation, which could help. As a dutchman I find the attitude of the dutch custums in this matter ridiculous!
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Hmm,
I keep my boat in Holland and one of my friends went to the Belgian boatshow. He spoke to the Dutch waterways police or customs who told him they would only check from 2008 onwards as there would be a lot of people with red in their tanks. However the key is to keep reciepts. I find it odd that you are asked to pay up but do not get any proof of the payment.
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Standard stuff.
IMPORTANT: ALWAYS KEEP ONE RECEIPT from the UK
You need to be able to prove that the red diesel in the tank was bought legitimately. So you need a recent receipt from a UK or a Belgian gas station (or another place where red is legal).
In the story, the owner was asked if he had a receipt, and it is not clear whether they actually had one, I assume not. So this is not a case of dutch authorities robbing the UK sailor, but rather the UK sailor failing to be able to prove that the red diesel is legit.
What alledgely happens is that Dutch mobo's cross into belgium at the start of the season, fill up with red, and then fill up with red for the rest of the year with jerrycans (don't let the customs guys spot you). When the inspection comes and finds traces of red in the tank, you point to the receipt. Of course that story wont fly if they compare your log to your mileage.
Location: Belgium (yes, it does exist... unfortunately)
Posts: 493
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
I'm a bit baffled that this story has come to light now. This practice has been going on for at least five years! We're a Belgian registered yacht ( Belgium until Jan 1st a "red diesel haven" too) lying inside The Netherlands on the Westerschelde, as many in our marina. Several of our Belgian members have been fined by Dutch customs. We always made sure we had a Belgian or English receipt if we had filled up with "red". They would accept it if less than three months old. One set of officers accepted a 5 month old receipt after we argued that we had white in the reserve canisters, that we were a sailing yacht, and only used "about a tankful" a year.
However, since the UK and Belgian derogation has been recalled since Jan 1st, Dutch Customs will see no reason why there shouldn't be white diesel in your tanks.
Belgian customs have declared "to observe a transition period". As this period has not been defined, the declaration is not very reassuring. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Not going to Holland looks like a plan now. Pity, I'm rather fond of decent Jenever. Surely the whole point of the EU (sole point IMO) was that goods legitimately purchased in one member state should be freely moveable to other member states, especially if for personal use.
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Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Message sent to the Dutch Embassy:
[ QUOTE ]
Can you please confirm that your government (specifically Customs and Excise) acknowledge and accept the United Kingdoms stated position with regard to the use of 'Red' Diesel in private pleasure craft as per Council Directive 2003/96/EC of 27 October 2003 restructuring
the Community framework for the taxation of energy products and electricity - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...3L0096:EN:HTML
I draw your attention to an incident reported on - http://www.sailtales.co.uk/st-tales-article-22569.html
[/ QUOTE ]
__________________ Beating is sailing for 2x the distance at 1/2 the speed & 3x the discomfort
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
But we in the UK have now lost our derogation to use Red diesil for liesure purposes. UK government have yet to decide how they are to impliment the new rules. This puts us all in a sort of limbo land to be picked off by EU officials as they see fit. I doubt very much if our poor fellow cruiser will get much support from any UK government body .The problem with this one long term is that the red dye stays in a tank onced used for ages.!!!
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
I'm the poor sucker facing a cutter full of Netherlands Authority at midnight with muttering about impounding the boat and all that that might mean.
I do not have many Customs Lawyers on speed dial
Anyway, I'm pleased that others are alerted and encouraged to keep the receipt.
Also I think the ANWB is the way to go, along with the local tourism development organisations. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
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Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Thanks for that.
We were the victims of this act of extortion.
Frankly when they have you tied alongside they have your full attention
__________________ <span style="color:blue">
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the realist adjusts the sails </span>
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Just watch out the fine of €4,54 per litre is based on your diesel tank capacity, not what you have on board.
__________________ <span style="color:blue">
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the realist adjusts the sails </span>
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Well I thought that and intend to make a bit of a fight of it before we are done.
Avoiding have an impounded boat and my right to residence and get back work in Brussels jeopardised we paid up.
But from some of the postings I'm sure that we have a case and will look for the best advice we can get - when the official papers arrive.
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the realist adjusts the sails </span>
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Gwylan, have you contacted the RYA? This is pricisley the sort of mess they should be interested in trying to sort out. I would also suggest that you write to your MEP's (All of them, most of us are now represented by about 6 from a number of different partys).
I firmly bnelieve that you have sufferwed a misscarriage of justice, I am sure that once the fuel is in free circulation they have no authority to do anything about it. I am not sure that having a reciept would have made any difference given your report.
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Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
As the injured party I look forward to seeing the response you get.
__________________ <span style="color:blue">
The pessimist complains about the wind;
the optimists expects it to change;
the realist adjusts the sails </span>
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Yes and they picked up the Sailtales [thanks Norman noBoat] and this thread.
I hope to talk to some people tomorrow and see where it goes from there.
Feverishly searching the bank statements for the card transaction and asked Brighton Marina if they can help with any supporting info.
I really believe that it is wrong and there was an error. But the officers on the boat claim to have consulted a higher authoirty.
We shall see!
__________________ <span style="color:blue">
The pessimist complains about the wind;
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Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Reply:
Thank you very much for your email. In the meantime we have received more emails about this matter regarding red diesel for pleasure crafts. I have contacted the Dutch Customs and I have been told that recently pleasure crafts are not allowed to use "red diesel" anymore. Instead "white diesel" should be used. For more detailed information, I would advise you to contact the Dutch customs directly. Please find their contact details below:
If you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Hoping to have been of assistance.
Yours sincerely,
Suzanne Bosman
Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands
Economic Department
38 Hyde Park Gate
London SW7 5DP
Tel. +44 (0)207 590 3256
Fax +44 (0)207 581 3450
Website: www.netherlands-embassy.org.uk
Reply:
Regarding "pleasure crafts are not allowed to use "red diesel" anymore"
I refer you to: BN70 : Energy Products Directive : Expiry of Derogations
at: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2007/bn70.htm
Operative date
The changes will take effect on and after 1 November 2008
As you have received other enquiries on this matter, can you please tell me to whom in the Customs department you referred this matter to.
__________________ Beating is sailing for 2x the distance at 1/2 the speed & 3x the discomfort
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
LadyInBed
Please can you give me the address you sent your "Message sent to the Dutch Embassy" to and I will send the same message. I have this week, left our boat in Vlissingen en route for her permanent home in the Veerse Meer. She has about 40 litres of Red on board.
Perhaps if everyone on the forum was to send the same message to the Dutch Embassy it might make an official there take some notice. I appreciate this is only an issue to a very small minority of sailors, but we could all rally round to help the few.
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
So to paraphrase the response: "We can't be bothered to find out, suggest you spend hours on the phone on an international phone call trying to find out for yourself". I guess this means that no UK boat should go to NL between now and November 2008 or they risk a fine.
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Reply:
Thank you very much for your email. Unfortunately as an Embassy we can not get involved in these matters. Therefore I would advise you again to contact the Dutch Customs directly.
Kind regards,
Suzanne Bosman
So that's a definite sloping shoulders job [img]/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]
Customs website: 'contact us'
Contact Us
Customs Information Line
Telephone number: 0800 - 0143
Telephone number from abroad: + 31 45 574 30 31
Opening hours: Monday through Thursday from 8.00 to 20.00 hours. Friday from 8.00 to 17.00 hours.
National Customs Helpdesk
Expertise Centre for Cross-Border Authorisations
Tax Administration & international issue
Cross-Border Employment and Enterprise team (GWO)
Addresses of customs and tax offices (in Dutch)
Tax Administration
Complaints and disputes
Please note:
It is unfortunately not possible to send an e-mail to Customs.
__________________ Beating is sailing for 2x the distance at 1/2 the speed & 3x the discomfort
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Well done for trying, but not too much more light or clarity.
I've emailed them too for some clarification or a contact for our appeal. We will appeal, if only to keep the thing in the public view!
Not too sure that UK Gov Budget Statement will cut much ice with them.
__________________ <span style="color:blue">
The pessimist complains about the wind;
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the realist adjusts the sails </span>
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Having been fined once, are you immune from further fines? Or have you now got rid of your red and replaced with white. I'm thinking that if I can get to our marina at Kortgene without being "had", I'll get them to pump out the tank and refill with white as the boat will be staying permanently in The Netherlands.
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Hi Gwylan
I had an interesting conversation with Dutch Customs this afternoon. It went like this....
Yes they are very aware that most people do not keep their diesel receipts.
It is up to the skipper to have the receipts showing the diesel was purchased prior to 1st Jan this year 2007.
Next year there must be no traces of red diesel in the system of a yacht
No they are not interested in the fact that it's completely impractical to clean red diesel traces from yachts systems. If there is a trace you will be breaking the law if caught with traces from the end of this year. If you can't be certain you are clear then don't come to Holland after 1 Jan 2008
If you can't show a diesel receipt before 1st Jan this year - don't come to Holland
They will not discuss it . They will only say what the law now is and that they intend to follow it to the letter. It is up to us to comply not for them to listen to any arguments.
Somehow I feel that there will not be many british yachts going to Holland after the end of 2007.
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Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
REmember the test that they do can detect red diesel dye at ratios of a few parts per million.
You are probably going to have to strip out and replace most of the fuel system. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]
Just because one officer fined you at the entrance to a lock doesn't mean another can't fine you again as you leave the lock.
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Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
This is absolute madness.
Why can our government not give us some protection from this legalised extortion.
Is it really the case that if a British boat which is operating quite legally in the UK will need to completely renew the entire fuel system to be able to visit Holland.
What about Belgian boats, If they stray into Dutch waters will they be robbed as well?
If we have to lose red diesel we have to - ok - but to make it illegal in Holland while still being perfectly legal in the UK is simple theft.
What is the situation with commercial vessels - will all those ships going into Europort every day be checked and fines if they are burning tax free fuel. I guess not.
God but I hate the EU - I did think the Dutch were better than this but apparently not - just as bad as the rest - detestable.
Just as an after thought I wonder what they will do about the hundreds of Dutch yachts that have sailed to the UK and topped up with red here. Wonder if they will be checked and fined if there is any lingering trace of red. Somehow I think not.
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
>>>
but to make it illegal in Holland while still being perfectly legal in the UK is simple theft.
>>>
Is that legal under EU law? If something may legally be purchased at one rate of tax in an EU nation I understood that it could then be legally taken to another EU nation without additonal tax being levied by the Customs provided the goods were for personal use and not commercial gain. This, I understand, is the whole basis on which you may now bring boot loads of wine over from Cherbourg. It looks to me that some official has over-interpreted the law. Pointing out to the Dutch Embassy that the actions of the Customs officials will drive foregn yachtsmen away could be an interesting and entertaining exercise.
Leave the EU, its obviously not fit for purpose.
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Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
[quoteIs that legal under EU law?
[/ QUOTE ]
In a simple one word answer NO
I have passed details of this on to the chap in the Barge assoc (where I got the text of the letter from) that deals with this I sugest someone does the same for the RYA as it is against EU law.
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Well we asked the nice Customs men the same question. They said that we should produce our €770 'licence' and everything would be OK.
Just takes a youth with a calculator to work out the break-even point for using red diesel and saving money in The Netherlands
They were vague on how long the 'licence' might work
Getting conflicting feedback and the 'bums rush' from my MEP's, but my former MP is probably too busy [deleted ed!]
The red is totally toxic and no one wants to know about it. Where do you put it when you pump it out? Pay some spiv to dispose of it in a barrel to Romania or something?
Keep your head down, hang on to the receipt and fill up soon and hopefully dilute the red away as quickly as possible.
EU, a free market?
__________________ <span style="color:blue">
The pessimist complains about the wind;
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the realist adjusts the sails </span>
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Well that seems at odds with what happened to us.
We purchased diesel after 01.01.07 - they were interested in the quality of the red colour. But in that sense we were bang to rights.
I would not wait until the end of 2007 to not come to the Netherlands. I think it's best not to come to the Netherlands - do not go looking for trouble.
I'm just stuck here for the duration and then I'm off to the far end of the Med where a bribe is a bribe and not state run extortion.
__________________ <span style="color:blue">
The pessimist complains about the wind;
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the realist adjusts the sails </span>
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Nope
You're wrong!
Their view is it's in accordance with the law therefore by definition it is not theft.
The problem is that their lawyers in the Dutch Customs service seem to have given an interpretation of the EU directive which the Customs officers are obliged to enforce. One may well ask questions related to the competence of the lawyers but too many hides are already nailed to the mast to prevent them even thinking about checking, besides whoever heard of a Dutch customs law officer being accused of having integrity? with customs officers allegedly being in possession of deep pockets from receiving fines for which no receipt is given?.... Yes! but integrity? It has never been specifically brought to my notice.
Unless of course you know different. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
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Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Integrity is not a thing I would ever accuse anyone with any EU connection of.
I would love to know if they are going to check the fuel of every Dutch yacht that has visited the UK.
I would bet all of them have topped up with red before going home.
Lets see how popular they are when they start fining all their own sailors. But of course they won't will they.
It may be the law but you can bet it will be applied with a degree of selectivity, even though the fundamental principle is that a law is applied equally to all.
I wonder if the French will follow suit, and the Spanish etc etc.
I also wonder if the "principle" applies to green diesel from Ireland as well as red.
What colour do you get if you have used both in the same tank?
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
I may be wrong but surely the "red" in diesel is merely an indicator of a lower taxed fuel therefore, if it is illegal to import a lower taxed fuel from one EU country to another by boat, surely it is illegal for a Dutch motorist to import fuel in his car upon which he has not paid UK rates of fuel tax - yes/no?
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Could not the actions of Dutch Customs, in effect, be seen as an impediment to free movement within the EU? Let's all sail to Strasbourg.
It seems to potentially create a dangerous situation if boats sailing to Holland cant have a good supply of fuel on board to cover contingencies. As others have said short of draining ones tanks and flushing through at some sort of offshore fuel barge how could a British yacht not be vulnerable. MOBOs must have a more accute problem.
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Yes
Thanks for that
Does this mean that from Jan 1 next year you will have to completely renew your fuel system if you wish to take your boat into Dutch waters as it will still have evidence of red diesel in the tank and piping.
Are any other countries in mainland Europe taking the same ridiculous attitude as the Dutch?
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
interesting - well we were planning an extended break late spring 2008 on the waterways over there having read glowing reports of the facilities and knowing how friendly the people are............well that's now on hold until clarification - and that clarification would have to include 'it doesn't matter what colour your fuel shows up as!
I am a boat - I fill up where I can and have been getting both red and white dyed fuel for some time now. It is likely that from Nov 2008 I won't be getting a red dyed fuel in the UK BUT NOT CERTAIN.
It is likely I will have red dyed fuel in the seperate heater fuel tank - but not certain.
Has anyone request EW's comment and RYA contribution formally as a member yet?
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
[ QUOTE ]
Reply:
Thank you very much for your email. In the meantime we have received more emails about this matter regarding red diesel for pleasure crafts. I have contacted the Dutch Customs and I have been told that recently pleasure crafts are not allowed to use "red diesel" anymore. Instead "white diesel" should be used. For more detailed information, I would advise you to contact the Dutch customs directly. Please find their contact details below:
If you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Hoping to have been of assistance.
Yours sincerely,
Suzanne Bosman
Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands
Economic Department
38 Hyde Park Gate
London SW7 5DP
Tel. +44 (0)207 590 3256
Fax +44 (0)207 581 3450
Website: www.netherlands-embassy.org.uk
[/ QUOTE ]
I got an identical reply from Ms Bosman and I get the impression that they are not really bothered.
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Just sent the Dutch Embassy the following:
"I have been reading with alarm the news that Dutch Customs officials have been stopping and fining foreign leisure craft for carrying red diesel legally purchased inside the EU. As the dye is easily traced with simple equipment and stays in the boat's fuel system for many years this looks like an serious problem for boaters who wish to visit the Netherlands. While the issue is unresolved I, and two other boats in company that planned to visit Holland this August, will not now extend our cruise to Dutch waters as the implecation is that we would be singled out for attention. A pity as I am rather fond of decent Jenever and it is hard to get in the UK. I am reasonably certain that many other UK based boaters will make the same decision and would urge you to get this matter raised by the Dutch Parliament.
I had always been of the understanding that one of the ideals of the EU was that goods legitimately purchased in one member state may be freely taken to another state for personal use without liability to additional customs dues. This action seems in contravention of that ideal."
If enough of us do something along these lines then maybe news will filter back to Holland. Or just don't go.
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Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Nice one Andrew
I sent the followingto the EU Ombudsman
Sir
There have been a number of recent examples of British leisure vessels visiting the Netherlands being fined by Dutch customs officials for having "red" (tax free) diesel fuel in their tanks.
Such fuel is legally and widely used for both commercial and leisure vessels in the UK and in some other EU member countries
It is alleged that the Netherlands Customs intend to apply this law retrospectively so that from 1st january 2008 any vessel found with any trace of "red" diesel will be automatically fined, even if no tax free diesel has been purchased for several years, and evidence is available that the vessel is being operated on fully taxed fuel.
The nature of the colouring agent used is such that it is effectively impossible to remove all traces.
This means that any British vessel visiting the Netherlands next year will have to completely replace the entire fuel system or face substantial fines.
It has always been my understanding that one of the ideals of the EU was that goods legitimately purchased in one member state may be freely taken to another state for personal use without liability to additional customs dues. This action seems in contravention of that ideal.
Further it seeks retrospectively to make an action (the purchase of tax free fuel in the UK) illegal when it was legally permitted under UK and EU law when it took place. This would appear to be against most principles of justice and perhaps even the European Convention on Human Rights.
It is unclear as I write to what extent this policy will be applied to the vessels of other EU member countries, such as Ireland and Belgium, that have or have had tax free fuel permitted for use in leisure and commercial vessels.
It is equally unclear how this policy will be applied next year by the Netherlands Customs to Netherlands registered vessels that have visited such countries legally selling tax free fuel and have purchased fuel there,thus leaving traces of tax free fuel in the fuel systems of their vessels.
I, and many other people, would appreciate some clarification of the position. Many British yachtsmen have traditionally visited the Netherlands and vice versa. There is a history of a very good and friendly relationship between the two nations. This policy clearly endangers that relationship and makes it unlikely that any British boat owners will feel able to visit the Netherlands after the 1st january 2008.
Location: Belgium (yes, it does exist... unfortunately)
Posts: 493
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
[ QUOTE ]
Does this mean that from Jan 1 next year you will have to completely renew your fuel system if you wish to take your boat into Dutch waters as it will still have evidence of red diesel in the tank and piping.
Are any other countries in mainland Europe taking the same ridiculous attitude as the Dutch?
[/ QUOTE ]
AFAIK the latest instance I know of - the customs officer's checks were visual ones. The skipper showed his reserve canisters - white in those-...still insisting checking the 120 liter tank, white in that, although red had been in it earlier in the year. Another Mark I eyeball check. They were satisfied after this, although a lab analyses certainly would have showed up traces.
The attitude of the Dutch to keeping to rules and regulations is "ridiculous" if you are on the receiving end of it, but "reassuring" if it works your way, as it does for many .
Nevertheless, it is worthwhile making it clear that enforcing this ruling in the extreme will hurt tourism. I've always found the Dutch very receptive on this, always making regulations "inoperative" if they tended to hurt the economy.
An example is i.e. the attitude to AF. Officially, since 2000, it is not allowed to sell or apply AF containing copper. After years of controversy and complaints by the HISWA (association of pleasure craft businesses), the regulation was not withdrawn, but made "inoperative" in actual fact.
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Well OK
But its all ifs and buts and might be
In effect you are saying I should risk losing several hundred pounds purely on the whim of some customs officer
Afraid its not good enough
I don't see how it reassures anyone - thereis not a winner in this unless, as has been implied, that the way to avoid this is to bribe the customs people. And I for one am not going down that route.
There are other places to instead of Holland, Belgium springs to mind, not very much further and they have tax free fuel.
I really do not see why you are defending this - there is no winner - everyone loses,
Fewer if any British boats will visit Holland so Holland loses.
A really nice country with great people is effectively closed to us as a cruising ground so we lose
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Yes
I wondered about that.
Part of the problem is that in Ireland red is green - if you see what I mean, so that might confuse them more.
Dunno what colour they have in Belgium.
Perhaps I should have said duty free, but too late now. Don't suppose anything will happen, nothing to our benefit has ever happened in the EU.
I did copy it to my MEPs (apparently I have six of the buggers) so if the Ombudsman wants clarification they should be able to get it from at least one of them. Assuming they can find time between completing their expenses claims.
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
I am afraid that letter to The Dutch forign Embassy will not change thier attitude as they are civil servents and will simply follow the line given to them by their Customs and Execise. Representations must be political and that means we must all write to our MP's and MEP to highlighth this situation. We will need questions to be raised in the house an d representations to be made to their counterparts.
The Dutch interperation is going to be probelmatic, as after we have lost the right to buty red deisel here we can continue to buy it legally in the Channel Islands. It must be understood that we should not face prosecution here for doing something outside of EU teritorial waters and jurisdiction upon our return.
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The best abbreviation of PI is 355/113
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
I have forwarded the mail to SW MEP Giles Chichester giles@gileschichestermep.org.uk
As his name and his Website proports a sailing interest - we shall see . . . . . [img]/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
I have taken this matter up with the RYA, as we have just moved Emjaytoo to The Netherlands where she will be permanently berthed.
Their comment was:-
[ QUOTE ]
With regard to the yacht in Holland, we understand the owner did not
have a recipt for the 'red' fuel purchased in the UK and therefore no
proof that the fuel had been purchased, and was being used, legitmately.
[/ QUOTE ]
So perhaps it is not as big a problem as it first appears.
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
I have received the following email from teh Cruising Manager of the RYA.
Hi James,
Yes we are aware of it, when Carol researched it further it transpired that the guy in question did not have a receipt to prove that he bought the fuel in the UK. The following was extracted by Neil Northmore from the EU Directorate General for Taxation and Customs:
According to the Community excise legislation and the jurisprudence of
the European Court of Justice, in case of fuel transported in the normal
fuel storage tank, the excise duty is chargeable in the Member State of
acquisition according to the national rules. It falls upon the Commission
to enforce the compliance of national legislation with Community law.
Consequently, in the meantime, people can acquire red diesel in
the UK and use it legally in another member state of the European Union, if
transported in the normal fuel storage tank.
I hope this is of assistance.
Neil N and I have discussed this at length and unless it can be shown that the Dutch or anyone else is misinterpreting the above then there is little we can represent at the moment. However I do agree that we should remind our members to carry receipts and to log engine hours to avoid this particular poo trap.
Kind Regards
Stuart Carruthers
The lack of a receipt seems to be the key thing, except that the Duch Embassy reaction seems to infer that receipt or not, Dutch Customs will be hurling books at innocent Brits
__________________
JJ
For all the latest news, gossip and comment from YM's reporting team go to Telltale
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
well customs certainly seem to have a rather different view as they have apparantly communicated to thier embasy in London
[ QUOTE ]
Reply:
Thank you very much for your email. In the meantime we have received more emails about this matter regarding red diesel for pleasure crafts. I have contacted the Dutch Customs and I have been told that recently pleasure crafts are not allowed to use "red diesel" anymore. Instead "white diesel" should be used. For more detailed information, I would advise you to contact the Dutch customs directly. Please find their contact details below:
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
All very well saying that red diesel is not allowed any more but how long will it take to get rid of the dye, even if the statement by there customs was true.?
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
It is pretty irrelevant, how long it will take as the British government seems in no hurry to prevent the sale of red diesel at the moment.
I only seem to fill up once or possibly twice a season and even then I don't let the tank get anywhere near empty. I expect that there will be traces of red diesel in my tank for years after I stop being able to buy it.
I did a little calculation: If I fill up twice a season when the tank is 2/3rds empty for 6 years my tank will still be 590.49ppm red diesel and if I top up when 60% of the fuel has been used then my tank will be 4194.3ppm red!
How on earth are we going to be able to escape this madness?
__________________
The best abbreviation of PI is 355/113
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
[ QUOTE ]
By quitting the EU.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then, by all means do.
I wish Britain would for once and for all make it's mind up - in all the way, or completely out. The present half hearted situation is not to anyone's benefit.
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Two replys so far:
1st passing the buck:
I have forwarded your email to Dr Jackson's Conservative colleague, Neil Parish MEP, who has primary responsibility for Somerset and who may be able to address your concerns.
Yours sincerely
Thomas Robertson
Assistant to Caroline Jackson MEP
=======================
2nd more positive:
Thank you for your email.
Looking through the links, there appear to be two different issues. The UK will from 1st November 2008, no longer be able to apply reduced rates of duty on red diesel, meaning that this will be taxed at the rate of normal diesel, significantly increasing its price, however it will still be legal to use for pleasure crafts. The UK did apply to the Commission to extend the derogation, but this bid failed. This came about because the UK alone had a derogation from the existing Directive, but the derogation was not relevant to the Dutch or to other member states and was only concerned with the rate of duty that had to be applied to red diesel.
With regards to the Dutch position on red diesel, the Dutch are within their rights within EU law to ban the use of red diesel if they wish and this is a seperate issue to the British derogation . I can see that many British pleasure craft users could fall foul of this law and so it does need to be highlighted. I am led to believe that if proof can be provided that the red diesel has been purchased outside of the Netherlands, then this law would not be broken, however I am not 100% sure that this is correct.
I would therefore be very interested in any reply you receive from Dutch customs on this matter. Also please feel free to send me more information as you receive it. We supported the British government's bid to extend the derogation of the duty of red diesel however from a European perspective, there appears little that I can do to help at this stage with regards to the Dutch ban.
Kind Regards,
Neil Parish MEP
__________________ Beating is sailing for 2x the distance at 1/2 the speed & 3x the discomfort
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
[ QUOTE ]
The UK did apply to the Commission to extend the derogation, but this bid failed. This came about because the UK alone had a derogation from the existing Directive, but the derogation was not relevant to the Dutch or to other member states and was only concerned with the rate of duty that had to be applied to red diesel.
[/ QUOTE ]
Getting the facts right does not seem to be a (Tory) priority.
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
[ QUOTE ]
Hmm,
I find it odd that you are asked to pay up but do not get any proof of the payment.
Rob
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the root cause of the UK problem with vat on boats. Few people here keep receipts unless the expense is chargeable against a business. Why would a private citizen want to keep endless small receipts? In fact most of mus dont keep big ones, like for the purchase of a car. No official here in the UK would ever ask for them - most officials wouldnt have the right to do so anyway..
Or am I totally misunderstanding your comment?
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this post is a personal opinion, and you should not base your actions on it.
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
and indeed, many of us fill up at our home marinas, and just have the bill added to our account.... so a quick fill up prior to heading off to Holland wouldn't provide a receipt....
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Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Here is another more confusing reply from the lovely lady at the Netherlands Embassy in the UK
Dear Mr Williams,
Thank you very much for your enquiry regarding the use of red diesel on pleasure crafts to the Netherlands. In the meantime we have received a number of emails about this matter and therefore I have contacted both Dutch Customs and HM Revenue & Customs.
I have received a letter from HM Revenue & Customs stating the following about red diesel:
QUOTE "On accession to the European Union, the UK policy of charging the reduced rate of duty for diesel used in pleasure craft was allowed to continue under derogation from the relevant EU Directives (initially the Oils Structure Directive (92/81/EEC), which was replaced by the Energy Products Directive (2003/96/EC)). The derogation was originally due to expire in 2001 but was extended for a period of five years.
The UK is one of five Member States with derogations, under the Energy Products Directive permitting the use of red diesel in private pleasure craft, the others being Ireland, Belgium, Finland and Malta. The derogations held by Member States under this Directive expired at 31 December 2006.
From the above it can be seen that pleasure boats sailing in the Netherlands territorial waters were never allowed to use red diesel, i.e. the Netherland position has never changed. Obviously the owners sailing there from the UK are not aware of this anomaly and have now been found in breach of the legislation that has always existed in the Netherlands and to which they should have always complied." UNQUOTE
The Dutch Customs have received a copy of this letter.
I hope the above information is satisfactory. If you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact me.
Hoping to have been of assistance.
Yours sincerely,
Suzanne Bosman
Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands
Economic Department
38 Hyde Park Gate
London SW7 5DP
Tel. +44 (0)207 590 3256
Fax +44 (0)207 581 3450
Website: www.netherlands-embassy.org.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: Rocyn Williams [mailto:rocyn.williams@porfalas.plus.com]
Sent: 01 June 2007 14:21
To: london@netherlands-embassy.org.uk
Subject: Contact
Regarding Red Diesel in UK registered pleasure boats can you please provide a contact regarding a clear statement on the present situation. We were recently stopped by the Douane and fined for having red diesel in our tanks after arriving from the UK. The link to the Netherlands Customs Service you have provided in other responses does not appear to provide the level of information we need. Regards Rocyn Williams
__________________ <span style="color:blue">
The pessimist complains about the wind;
the optimists expects it to change;
the realist adjusts the sails </span>
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
Did really think about that - but the amounts are so great that the smallest sample purchase would last me about 20 years
But I suppose I could have a business reselling smaller amounts and make an inflated profit.
javascript:void(0)
[img]/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]
__________________ <span style="color:blue">
The pessimist complains about the wind;
the optimists expects it to change;
the realist adjusts the sails </span>
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
I have been in contact with the RYA again in view of the latest statement from the Dutch Embassy. The Cruising Manager has confirmed to me that the statement is just plain wrong and he has asked the person who wrote the letter to explain from where she got the information. It is at odds with what he has been told by Dutch Customs which is that red diesel is OK provided you have a recent receipt and an up to date log.
In the meantime it seems to me there can be only one piece of advice to give to yachtsmen planning a visit to The Netherlands - don't do it!
__________________
JJ
For all the latest news, gossip and comment from YM's reporting team go to Telltale
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
what a shambles.....
We're planning on Holland again in '08.... hope they get it sorted before then, otherwise we'll go somewhere else instead....
I reckon that with my own fuel consumption it'll be at least 7 years before rhe red marker is not visible by eye, and even then, only if we run the tank right down, which we won't do..... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
__________________ Bored?.... why not read my blog .... its the developing story of the trials and tribulations of boat ownership!
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
[ QUOTE ]
Consequently, in the meantime, people can acquire red diesel in
the UK and use it legally in another member state of the European Union, if
transported in the normal fuel storage tank.
I hope this is of assistance.
Neil N and I have discussed this at length and unless it can be shown that the Dutch or anyone else is misinterpreting the above then there is little we can represent at the moment. However I do agree that we should remind our members to carry receipts and to log engine hours to avoid this particular poo trap.
Kind Regards
Stuart Carruthers
The lack of a receipt seems to be the key thing, except that the Duch Embassy reaction seems to infer that receipt or not, Dutch Customs will be hurling books at innocent Brits
[/ QUOTE ]
Dont the Dutch have "innocent until proven guilty etc"? Surely it is up to them to prove that the red diesel in a British boats tanks was not purchased in the UK, not the other way round.
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this post is a personal opinion, and you should not base your actions on it.
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
"From the above it can be seen that pleasure boats sailing in the Netherlands territorial waters were never allowed to use red diesel, i.e. the Netherland position has never changed. Obviously the owners sailing there from the UK are not aware of this anomaly and have now been found in breach of the legislation that has always existed in the Netherlands and to which they should have always complied."
Interesting to read comments from those wan*ers in HMC&E supporting the British citizens who pay their inflated salaries. And you can all remember HMC&E warning us of potential problems in the past, cant you?
Bit like the VAT issue where they have done another Pontius Pilate job.
__________________
this post is a personal opinion, and you should not base your actions on it.
Re: Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting to read comments from those wan*ers in HMC&E supporting the British citizens who pay their inflated salaries. And you can all remember HMC&E warning us of potential problems in the past, cant you?
Bit like the VAT issue where they have done another Pontius Pilate job.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that it is our HMC&E to whom she is referring.
__________________
The best abbreviation of PI is 355/113
Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
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