Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?

[jimmynoboat]

I have just been sent this story and I had to ask - has anyone else had bother like this over red diesel in the Netherlands?

story here

[Barbican Bill]

Blimey!

Would be very interesting to know if anyone else has encountered this recently. If it is a new policy, then I'm changing my holiday plans! If on the other hand I've been running this risk for years, then I may continue to do so.

Little Knot

[firstmatewendy]

HWMBO and crew have this evening arrived in Vlissingen with our boat (which will be kept at Kortgene on the Veerse Meer). After 21 hours of motoring/motor sailing in much heavier weather than predicted, I haven't got the heart to ring him up and tell him to look out for the Dutch customs.
Fingers crossed!

[TheBoatman]

I'd be ringing him up a.s.a.p and tell him to top the tank with local diesel.

Peter.

[omega2]

Why oh why do we play ball with these EU idiots, we fought them for 300 years and beat the lot now we roll over at every whim they may have. GET US OUT OF EUROPE

[oldgit]

"we fought them for 300 years and beat the lot"
Well nearly always....... Pesky Dutch

[Gwylan]

Just watch out the fine of €4,54 per litre is based on your diesel tank capacity, not what you have on board.

[Seven Spades]

Gwylan, have you contacted the RYA? This is pricisley the sort of mess they should be interested in trying to sort out. I would also suggest that you write to your MEP's (All of them, most of us are now represented by about 6 from a number of different partys).

I firmly bnelieve that you have sufferwed a misscarriage of justice, I am sure that once the fuel is in free circulation they have no authority to do anything about it. I am not sure that having a reciept would have made any difference given your report.

[Gwylan]

Yes and they picked up the Sailtales [thanks Norman noBoat] and this thread.
I hope to talk to some people tomorrow and see where it goes from there.
Feverishly searching the bank statements for the card transaction and asked Brighton Marina if they can help with any supporting info.
I really believe that it is wrong and there was an error. But the officers on the boat claim to have consulted a higher authoirty.
We shall see!

[Seven Spades]

It's good to see that they are on the ball.

[sailorman]

keep the reciept o/b seem to be the answer [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Becky]

I am sitting here just wondering if these good people have been taken for suckers.

HWMBO is quite nervous of this situation when we are abroad.

BUT, surely we can only buy red diesel, and as it is legal in the UK, it should only become illegal if we buy red abroad?

The thing is that with log and receipts one should be able to prove that no infringement has taken place.

I find this whole subject highly suspicious. I firmly believe that ungodly officials take advantage of us innocent Brits.

Unless someone on the forum knows better?

[Seven Spades]

I am sure that as the fuel was bought in the UK, it is in free circulation and as such if there is a Law in the Netherlands which prohibits its importation that law would not be upheld in the European Court.

I wonder what would have happend if they had said that they wanted to see or speak to a lawer before paying any fine.

[moondancer]

I am fairly convinced I had water in red diesel from a marina a whie ago so now I fill up with jerry cans from petrol stations. The amount I use is quite small so it is just about practical and the cost is not an issue.

[ChrisE]

I don't know for sure but my guess is that the Dutch authorities were being over officious and a polite statement along the lines of 'Please take me to the police station where I would like to talk to your boss' might have got a different response.

[wagenaar]

Customs and police are two different things, so I don't think going to the police would help much. I think a better option would be to contact the ANWB, the dutch tourist organisation, which could help. As a dutchman I find the attitude of the dutch custums in this matter ridiculous!

[rlw]

Hmm,

I keep my boat in Holland and one of my friends went to the Belgian boatshow. He spoke to the Dutch waterways police or customs who told him they would only check from 2008 onwards as there would be a lot of people with red in their tanks. However the key is to keep reciepts. I find it odd that you are asked to pay up but do not get any proof of the payment.

Rob

[theguvnor]

How much is white diesel in Holland ?

[thalassa]

about 1,04 EUR/ liter in Holland. About 0,95 EUR/l in Belgium.

[birdseye]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm,

I find it odd that you are asked to pay up but do not get any proof of the payment.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the root cause of the UK problem with vat on boats. Few people here keep receipts unless the expense is chargeable against a business. Why would a private citizen want to keep endless small receipts? In fact most of mus dont keep big ones, like for the purchase of a car. No official here in the UK would ever ask for them - most officials wouldnt have the right to do so anyway..

Or am I totally misunderstanding your comment?

[Morgana]

and indeed, many of us fill up at our home marinas, and just have the bill added to our account.... so a quick fill up prior to heading off to Holland wouldn't provide a receipt....

[Gwylan]

I'm the poor sucker facing a cutter full of Netherlands Authority at midnight with muttering about impounding the boat and all that that might mean.
I do not have many Customs Lawyers on speed dial

Anyway, I'm pleased that others are alerted and encouraged to keep the receipt.

Also I think the ANWB is the way to go, along with the local tourism development organisations. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Oldhand]

The question is whether the EU, having removed the UK's red deisel derrogation as of 01 Jan 2007, agrees with our useless govermnet not doing anything about it until October 2008? Has our government got EU agreement for us to continue to use red diesel into 2008? If so we should all be issued with a copy of such agreement. If not, our government is forcing us to break EU law and should be taken to court for doing so.

Just wait until July/August, I'm sure the authorities in another well visited EU country will want to start checking our diesel tanks too....

[peterb26]

This is a bit like the Portuguese Government totally ignoring EC VAT regulations on imported boats and cars.

Portugal make 100s of millions of euros a year out of illegally demanding Portuguese VAT at 21% from fully paid boat and car owners, yet Portugal continues to do this because the EEC only fine them 10 million euros each year - so its a good earner............

Basically disgusting but as it says in the article - who do you complain to?

[Seven Spades]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a bit like the Portuguese Government totally ignoring EC VAT regulations on imported boats and cars.

Portugal make 100s of millions of euros a year out of illegally demanding Portuguese VAT at 21% from fully paid boat and car owners, yet Portugal continues to do this because the EEC only fine them 10 million euros each year - so its a good earner............

Basically disgusting but as it says in the article - who do you complain to?

[/ QUOTE ]

Under what circumstances? I have not read any reports of Portugal demanding VAT from VAT paid boats.

[Cervinia]

Here is the text of a letter we had from the EU Directorate General for Taxation and Customs that up until Nov 2008 red diesel bought in UK can be used for propulsion anywhere in the EU
Hope its of use

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Further to my e-mail of 4th April, I have received a reply from the
Directorate-General for Taxation and Customs. Their finding are as
follows:

The United Kingdom' s derogation from the general provisions of
the energy taxation directive(1), allowing the UK to apply a reduced rate of
excise duty to fuel used in navigation in private pleasure craft, expired by
the end of 2006. The Commission communication of 30 November
2006(2) explains the reasons why the Commission did not propose an
extension of the derogation in question, as requested by the UK.

Therefore, from January 2007 onwards, the general provisions of the
energy taxation directive also apply for the United Kingdom.

However, the UK does not intend to reflect these changes until November
2008. HM Revenue & Customs' web-site carries a budget note (BN) on the expiry of derogations,
see:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2007/bn70.htm

which explicitly quotes the 1st November 2008 as the date by which fuel used for the purpose of private pleasure flying/boating will no longer benefit from the current reduced and exempt rates of duty.

According to the Community excise legislation and the jurisprudence of
the European Court of Justice, in case of fuel transported in the normal
fuel storage tank, the excise duty is chargeable in the Member State of
acquisition according to the national rules. It falls upon the Commission
to enforce the compliance of national legislation with Community law.
Consequently, in the meantime, people can acquire red diesel in
the UK and use it legally in another member state of the European Union, if
transported in the normal fuel storage tank.
I hope this is of assistance.

Best wishes

Marguerite-Marie Brenchley
Outreach Section
__________________________________________________
(1) Council Directive 2003/96/EC of 27 October 2003 restructuring
the Community framework for the taxation of energy products and electricity -
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...3L0096:EN:HTML
(2) Commission communication COM(2006)743 -
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...6_0743en01.pdf

[sailorman]

Thnx
i have copied & will keep o/b ready for july 07 [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Major Catastrophe]

It may help if lots of people made their observations via this contact form to the Dutch Embassy, and linking to the Gwylan story.

Contact form.

[LadyInBed]

Message sent to the Dutch Embassy:
[ QUOTE ]
Can you please confirm that your government (specifically Customs and Excise) acknowledge and accept the United Kingdoms stated position with regard to the use of 'Red' Diesel in private pleasure craft as per Council Directive 2003/96/EC of 27 October 2003 restructuring
the Community framework for the taxation of energy products and electricity -
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...3L0096:EN:HTML
I draw your attention to an incident reported on -
http://www.sailtales.co.uk/st-tales-article-22569.html

[/ QUOTE ]

[kingfisher]

Standard stuff.

IMPORTANT: ALWAYS KEEP ONE RECEIPT from the UK

You need to be able to prove that the red diesel in the tank was bought legitimately. So you need a recent receipt from a UK or a Belgian gas station (or another place where red is legal).

In the story, the owner was asked if he had a receipt, and it is not clear whether they actually had one, I assume not. So this is not a case of dutch authorities robbing the UK sailor, but rather the UK sailor failing to be able to prove that the red diesel is legit.

What alledgely happens is that Dutch mobo's cross into belgium at the start of the season, fill up with red, and then fill up with red for the rest of the year with jerrycans (don't let the customs guys spot you). When the inspection comes and finds traces of red in the tank, you point to the receipt. Of course that story wont fly if they compare your log to your mileage.

[thalassa]

I'm a bit baffled that this story has come to light now. This practice has been going on for at least five years! We're a Belgian registered yacht ( Belgium until Jan 1st a "red diesel haven" too) lying inside The Netherlands on the Westerschelde, as many in our marina. Several of our Belgian members have been fined by Dutch customs. We always made sure we had a Belgian or English receipt if we had filled up with "red". They would accept it if less than three months old. One set of officers accepted a 5 month old receipt after we argued that we had white in the reserve canisters, that we were a sailing yacht, and only used "about a tankful" a year.
However, since the UK and Belgian derogation has been recalled since Jan 1st, Dutch Customs will see no reason why there shouldn't be white diesel in your tanks.
Belgian customs have declared "to observe a transition period". As this period has not been defined, the declaration is not very reassuring. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Andrew_Fanner]

Not going to Holland looks like a plan now. Pity, I'm rather fond of decent Jenever. Surely the whole point of the EU (sole point IMO) was that goods legitimately purchased in one member state should be freely moveable to other member states, especially if for personal use.

[Karouise]

Off to Holland tomorrow with a club rally. Receipt onboard. Fingers crossed!

[Gwylan]

Well I thought that and intend to make a bit of a fight of it before we are done.
Avoiding have an impounded boat and my right to residence and get back work in Brussels jeopardised we paid up.
But from some of the postings I'm sure that we have a case and will look for the best advice we can get - when the official papers arrive.

[jamesjermain]

I have been in contact with the RYA again in view of the latest statement from the Dutch Embassy. The Cruising Manager has confirmed to me that the statement is just plain wrong and he has asked the person who wrote the letter to explain from where she got the information. It is at odds with what he has been told by Dutch Customs which is that red diesel is OK provided you have a recent receipt and an up to date log.

In the meantime it seems to me there can be only one piece of advice to give to yachtsmen planning a visit to The Netherlands - don't do it!

[Morgana]

what a shambles.....

We're planning on Holland again in '08.... hope they get it sorted before then, otherwise we'll go somewhere else instead....

I reckon that with my own fuel consumption it'll be at least 7 years before rhe red marker is not visible by eye, and even then, only if we run the tank right down, which we won't do..... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Bergman]

Yes good advice James

The situation is too unclear to risk the possible consequences

My proposed trip for next month has been cancelled, we'll head North instead.

At least the Scots don't rob us - and the kippers are good too.