MBM red diesel campaignA forum dedicated to Motor Boats Monthly's forthcoming Red Alert campaign for the retention of the current rate of duty on UK-supplied marine diesel. Read more here.
whilst any new tax is anethema to any one, on a selfish note wouldnt it mean a return to the days of sailing not motoring and anchorages empty of those not prepared or capable of doing so
I think this is a memeber of the sailing fraternity who does not count us motorboaters amongst his friends.
Not that I needed and excuse, but attittudes like his just encourage me to use the boat more and more. Why revel in other displeasure, you nasty little toad...
Agreed, I always take it very slow near raggies, but the likes of him make me feel like burning some fuel just for fun. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
A wize man once told me, "never joke about money".
Many people are looking at how they will cope with the comming storm,both marine & the wider picture.
[ QUOTE ]
It's people with attitudes like him that caused this tax hike. If we had presented a united front like the aviators this wouldn't have happened.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree - its not a funny post, and I'm a raggie. But I dont think the "united front" bit would have made the slightest difference. We were always going to be forced into the EU tax straightjacket - the original deal was only a temporary concession. And how can you justify tax on road transport diesel on which we depend, and not on someone's yacht?
I agree - its not a funny post, and I'm a raggie. But I dont think the "united front" bit would have made the slightest difference. We were always going to be forced into the EU tax straightjacket - the original deal was only a temporary concession. And how can you justify tax on road transport diesel on which we depend, and not on someone's yacht?
[/ QUOTE ]
So why do aviators have ultra-cheap fuel for pleasure then? I'm pretty sure it's all made from oil you know.
I have no problem with there being a tax for marine diesel for pleasure use. It's the amount of it I have a problem with.
[ QUOTE ]
I have no problem with there being a tax for marine diesel for pleasure use.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have no problem with any tax imposed that I can see provides a benefit to the country ... this tax doesn't ...
This (and every) government are obsessed by tax and how much money they can take from the population with no due regard to efficiencies within it's own organisation.
__________________
Bavaria keels don't fall off, they just wobble slightly.
Simply! The fuel tax for road vehicles is supposed to pay for the road building and maintenance which, of course, they use. Boats don't....
[/ QUOTE ]
some sense
Now wouldn't it be peachy if those fixing a single flat rate for all, made it 50:50. That way EU would be satisfied that the minimum tax amount was being paid, and the UK would not be breaking rules about multiple rates for the same fuel.
I'd be happy with that,the so called green boaters should be happy any no-one gets crucified in one hit.
Far too equable, so it won't happen.
I for one have not forgotten that HMCE (or was it the Treasury) said the tax was to be based on self declaration and no questions asked - by the seller.
Worth adding into the mix the requirement that purchases of 100l or more require more paperwork than smaller quantities anyway, maybe 50l here and there is less likely to be suspicious.
For the record, how much fuel might a 5 series Ebb glop in a 24 hour period?
__________________
Two beers please, my friend is paying.
I don't have an ebergobler because for most of the boating season I wouldn't need it, so if there is to be favourable split surely it will be seasonal? Say 80:20 in the winter and 20:80 in the summer if at all, the HMRC are not stupid are they.
5 series makes hot water for domestic purposes. You can also switch some variant to vent in the summer, cold air, using battery power, requiring engine time to recharge.
__________________
Two beers please, my friend is paying.
So I'm ok to claim domestic use for water heating then, sounds ok. But following that logic, petrol boats should be able to claim a split for domestic use?
[ QUOTE ]
So I'm ok to claim domestic use for water heating then, sounds ok. But following that logic, petrol boats should be able to claim a split for domestic use?
[/ QUOTE ]
IF they ever had Red Petrol in the past, which of course they don't and didn't. Theoretically is should be possible to reclaim duty for no road use, but C&E (as they were) huffed and puffed, claimed evasion, anything to stop one's rights and strangled any attempts. Perhaps when all is done and dusted next year Petrol Mobos might care to claim unfair treatment and open up the issue again.
Q:why do aviators have ultra-cheap fuel for pleasure then?
A: Because their representative body fought to keep the price down to the EU minimum unlike the RYA who adopted the views of a few Sailing Boat members who expressed concerns about the environment. They chose not to fight to keep the tax down to the EU minimum.
It is not too late to get the government to adopt a tax of 21ppl. If you do not want a 600% Tax increase you need to write to your MP , the Chancellor at DarlingA@parliament.uk and the RYA (Tell RYA to get behind this campaign now and work for benefit of all boating members)
Well done and thank you, especially as the amount of diesel that you use will probably not stop your boating. I want the 350,000 motor boaters in this country to make their voice heard, in government and RYA. I believe that we could still succeed in convincing government that tax revenue will fall from the marine sector and the RYA that their membership will decline amongst the power boaters if the full road tax rate is applied to red diesel.
The argument was used that we could not apply the EU minimum tax, as we were not allowed to charge a different rate for the same fuel. Now that HMRC has agreed that we can continue to use red diesel surely this argument no longer applies.
Think it might be politicaly impossible in the current climate, Goverment keep cheap diesel for "Gin palace" owners but not for the rest of the populace in their cars.
Chris, do not forget that,
1. The government with backing from the RYA applied to the EU to keep the fuel derogation at the end of 2006, i.e., 6 PPL on red diesel.
2. The road fuel tax contributes to the upkeep of the road infrastructure.
3. The ‘fuel escalator’, which is due to increase the tax on road fuels again in October, is justified by Gov. because of the need to deter road use.
4. Leisure pilots achieved an increase of just 2 PPL to bring them to the EU minimum.
5. I believe that most people would see an increase in tax of 15 PPL to bring marine users to the EU minimum as a significant increase.
6. Governments do not always respond to popular public opinion, after all 4000 city traders are reputed to have received bonuses averaging 1 million+ in the current economic climate.
Go on write to your MP, write to the Chancellor; write to the RYA, from the size of your wake and fuel likely to cost £6.30 a gallon you have nothing to lose and certainly, nothing will change unless we make it..
If i declare that I charter my boat out to the man at the pump does that mean he has to give my diesel at the commercial rate. No way he can prove otherwise and probably no motivation to do it either.
Despite the announcement by the RYA, that the HMRC would trust the boating community to self certify its use of red diesel from Nov 1st it would now appear that this is not the case.
The HMRC are not happy with boater self certifying whether the fuel is to be used for propulsion or heating/power generation and paying the appropriate level of tax i.e. expensive of extortionate.
I understand that we may expect an announcement that a fixed proportion of the purchased fuel will be taxable at the lower heating rate.
When will the RYA recognise the tragedy that is about to befall the leisure boat industry and the boater and start to use their influence (if any) with government to limit the tax increase on Red Diesel to the EU minimum. I think the alarming increase in the cost of fuel has rendered the “impact assessment” carried out by HMRC a totally out of date and useless.
The current estimated cost of a gallon of diesel at £6.50 (plus the road fuel escalator tax increase due in October) may even be causing some concern to sailing members who hitherto have felt that their limited use would have little impact on their boating. If so please let the RYA know of your concern so that they may re-evaluate their decision not to lobby for the EU minimum tax.
[ QUOTE ]
.....I understand that we may expect an announcement that a fixed proportion of the purchased fuel will be taxable at the lower heating rate.....
[/ QUOTE ]
This will be an interesting challenge for many of the staff who man the fuel stations. They will have to work out x% of total sale volume at Y p/litre and (100-x)% at Z p/litre. Also what will the pump readout say? It will only give the sale price at the commercial red diesel rate....
Unworkable in my view but then this government specialises in dreaming up unworkable and impractical solutions to most things.
The easy solution would have been to apply the minimum rate of tax for all red sales and let commercial operators claim back the extra tax paid as they do their VAT. Or ignore the EU....
Its really no tthat hard and you are over complicating it. the 70/30 split or whatever will be reflected in the rate of duty applied tothe fuel.
If it were a 70% full duty 30% rebated duty split, the amount fixed by HMRC for red diesel for leisure boaters would be (0.57x0.7)+(0.10x0.3) or £0.43 duty per litre.
[ QUOTE ]
Its really no tthat hard and you are over complicating it. ...
[/ QUOTE ]
Watch this space.. Can you really see HMCE allowing a fixed heating % on any quantity? They don't already on the VAT which rises to 17.5% on volumes aboves 2200 litres for some bizarre reason. Will foreign boats be allowed the 'heating %' when use of low tax red is illegal in their country.
Also you won't have dealt with the guy that works the pump at the supplier I sometimes use. He struggles to get the price on the pump into the till in the office correctly.....
red diesel tax
Linear Mode
