RYA question timeHere is the result of a Q and A session with the RYA's chief executive Rod Carr on 1600-1800 GMT Tuesday 14 January. This is a moderated forum and any posts made here will not appear at the time of posting.
The RYA has been campaigning on this issue for many years now, mostly on grounds of safety and for the sake of the continued success of the leisure boating industry in the UK. We were very pleased with the extension of the last derogation, but we were also very much aware that there would be another round to come in 2007. To that end, RYA Legal employs Parliamentary Agents to monitor and report on what is developing with regards to any issues we are or should be involved in. This is what is happening with regard to red diesel - the lobbying is an ongoing process.
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Re: Duty on red fuel
There are two sides to this question. Many sailors (raggies) are also environmentally aware, and know that powerful motor boats are profligate users of fossil fuels = emissions and pollution = global warming, etc. Does the RYA take any cogniscance of the fact that sailors, who use diesel by the litre, rather than motorboaters who use it by the 100 litres, might think it a good thing if red diesel became history.
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The support that the RYA has given to ensure the preservation of low duty rate on marine diesel fuel is one of the only two issues that I have taken exception to as a member over the last 20 years.
There are no ethical or envirnomental grounds to subsidise the fuel costs to pleasure boaters, on the contrary, they should perhaps be increased to make people think twice about the size of their throttle opening or,indeed the size of their engines.
I would approve of subsidies for fishing vessals etc - but pleasure boaters ? How can you justify it ? There are no safety issues involved at all.
Ken
We have no fundamental objection to paying duty on fossil fuels. However, the object of harmonising with Europe will be lost if we end up having the most expensive marine diesel in the EU.
We're also concerned that suppliers will have to install additional tanks to cater for red diesel (fishermen and other commercial users), white diesel (us) and petrol. Many suppliers in more remote areas may not think it worthwhile installing tanks for white diesel. This becomes a safety issue.
With respect, you should have a fundamental objection to levying duty on marine fuel, at lesat at "road fuel" duty rates. There is no logical or ethical justification for levying a tax which, at least nominally, is intended to finance an infrastructure from which the taxpayer is benefitting when, in the case of boats, that infrastructure does not exist.
The absence of a tax IS NOT a subsidy - a point which many posters on these forumes consistently fail to grasp.
That is our point and I'm sorry if I didn't make it very clearly.
Our objection is that, should the UK lose its derogation on red diesel, we would be subject to the high road fuel tax levels in this country, which is much higher than anywhere else in Europe.
The days when a tax supported a particular infrastructure have long gone. Pretty well all taxes vanish into the same governmental pot, so there is no justification for some of us paying less per litre than others.
There would be no reason for seperate diesel tanks - we don't have seperate shops for businesses exempt from VAT - they have to reclaim it - so I feel that is a red herring (NPI)
I really do appreciate the time Rod put into this forum and the efforts of Kim to set it up. Well done |
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It's not where the money ends up, it's the justification for the tax being levied. The principal tax on petrol/DERV fuel is "road fuel duty", which is nominally intended to support the road transport infrastructure. The fact that the amounts collected far exceed the amounts spent is a separate issue.
>>Pretty well all taxes vanish into the same governmental pot, so there is no justification for some of us paying less per litre than others>> is a non-sequitur.
This surely is missing completely the point of the argument. Yes our road fuel taxes are high, much too high but I cannot see that justifies the non taxation of fuel for marine leisure purposes. If I buy an off road vehicle for leisure purposes then I pay my taxes. Fundamentally I believe the red tax exemption on leisure fuel is a historical anomoly which should be phased out, both on the grounds of equity and environmental protection.
I get pissed off when I fill up my diesel car, which I use to get to work, costing me £50 and a leisure boater can get 5 times the volume of fuel for that. Not only that but I've got to have a catalytic convertor on my exhaust system with the emissions tested at MOT, its about time that happened to marine engines!
It really is not fair and impossible to justify logically.
Personally I have never heard of "Leisure Fuel". I always thought it was Agricultural Diesel.
The tax levied on vehicle diesel is road fuel tax. If you use an offroad vehicle for leisure puposes you can use Red Diesel provided that you don't drive the thing on the road.
The point that the RYA argued the case on was that it would be totally unfair to force the highest priced fuel in the EEC on Boaters. Don't forget that the major users of red diesel are small business men trying to eek out a living in difficult times for them. The concept of differentiating prices at the pump by some form of accounting system is so fraught with holes. Fiddles would be rife. We all know that the cost differential would justify all sorts of scams.
Of course the major pressure on Red diesel taxation must come fro the EEC who want to harmonise taxation & already have most countries in Europe heading down the route towards on price for all diesel. That should throw a few spanners in the works. The meerest mention of the EEC/Brussels seems to get the average Brit extremely hot under the collar.
Duty on red fuel
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