Living and sailing in Spain Legally....

delandh · #1 31-01-05, 14:30

Does anyone have any experience with owning a boat and living on it in Spain?

We have been living in Spain now for a few months and the law states that after 183 days in a calendar year you are considered resident for tax purposes. This means that our UK flagged boat would have to be re-flagged as Spanish after paying the 12% tax on the value of the boat and an exam would have to be taken for a 10 meter boat, the course will be in Spanish. If you don’t speak Spanish then what would you do? The ICC is not accepted for Spanish flagged boats. We sailed our boat from the south of France and have been sailing for about 4 years now with many thousands of miles under our belt and consider ourselves to be quite competent although not experts. Can a Day Skipper qualification be converted to a Spanish qualification? We have heard that only the Yatchmaster qualification can be converted. Any ideas anyone?

Many thanks

delandh

Bambola · #2 31-01-05, 16:57

unless you put down 'roots' and just stay in one port you will not have a problem.

You can always claim you have visited Gibraltar or Morocco every so often or that you fly back to the UK sometimes. That way the clock stops clicking and anyway the Spanish are really not interested unless you really want to become a resident.

wagenaar · #3 31-01-05, 17:43

I arrived in la Coruña, Spain, in may 1994 and left a couple of days later. While on my way, the mast fell overboard and I motored back to Coruña to arrange the repair. This took quite awhile and I did not leave till july 1995. During the winter of '94/95 I lived in an apartment near Coruña and I nver had any problem with the spanish authorities. Since I decided to keep on living in Spain I applied for residancy and this did not have any consequences for the mregistartion of my ship. In 1995 I left Coruña, sailed along the portuguese and spanish atlantic coast and left my ship for the winter in Torrevieja, again no consequences. In the summer we, my wife, who has the spanish nationality, and I sailed in the Baleares and brought the ship at the end of august to Barcelona, where she spent the winter. Again no consequences. I conclude from all this, that in general the spanish authorities don't bother about the law, although I fear that when I bought another ship now, I might get problems. I am dutch and don't have an official paper either about my competance to sail a ship. In your situation I would not bother about anything.

paulrossall · #4 31-01-05, 22:05

A mate of mine took his yacht to Marbella in June 2000 and left it there until May 2004, living on it probably 50% of the time. He had no problem at all, even when we were stopped at sea by the Gendarmees(spelling?) on our way back after visiting North Africa. If I were going out there I would not woory about this rule being applied........as they don't seem to apply it. Paul

MedMan · #5 01-02-05, 00:26

The Cruising Association have been monitoring this situation for the last two years and have produced a lengthy report which is available on the members' pages of their website.

Several members have been hit by very heavy taxes so it certainly is a situation to take seriously. The first point to make is that it is the days that you spend in Spain that matter - not the length of time your boat is there. If you leave the country for 24 hours every 182 days and can prove that you have done so, you should not have a problem. If you exceed that, in theory you must register as a Spanish Resident with all that that entails. However, as several other forum members have stated, so long as you keep moving, the authorities are highly unlikely to catch up with you.

The real problem comes if you stay put in one place for more than 183 days. Even then, you will only have a problem if the relevant authorities notice. It would seem that the most common 'trigger' is owning or renting a property in the same locality. This alerts the authorities to your existence and radically increases your chances of being detected.

This is only a very brief summary of the situation. If you have genuine cause for concern perhaps you might wish to consider joining the CA. They will not necessarily be able to solve all your problems, but they will keep you well informed.

adelecart · #6 01-02-05, 14:57

Hi, I bought a bought in Almerimar and lived on it for a while. There were loads of liveaboards in the marina and there was lots of chatter about this very issue. However, nobody ever had a problem other than when some idiot decided to draw attention to themselves by putting a flower box in fron of their mooring!
catgirl

trouville · #7 02-02-05, 09:53

It must have been more than that, as many have sat dishes bolted to the pontoon/dock!!Beware of the Spanish, there not really nice and if they notice you they may well make administrative troubles for you. But at the same time im not a fan of boats used as fixed homes, and thus filling the ports which is why there are almost no place to use when crusing, and anchoring is not that comfortable in summer.
The rules about staying are the same more or less everywhere accept in the UK where you still must pay taxes if need be after 6months residence. The real problem is that in France Spain and Italy to take three med contries, is that even if you dont have to pay taxes on your income/wealth as it falls below the minimum you do still have to pay social contributions, that applies for example to a Spanish French Italian citizen who recieves a minimum pension say £350PM from the state they must still PAY from that, contributions.
As most contries insist that "residents" must be self supporting the minimum income declared is often set around £600 PM BUT you must be insured for medical and pension and therfor you must pay contributions even if you have private arrangements--in the UK social contributions are up to you-if you dont pay them you dont get benifits.

jeanne · #8 02-02-05, 23:23

We live in Spain and keep our boat on a mooring we laid ourselves. We were requested last year to go to the local Capitania and obtain a permission to moor (as were all the boats in our river). It took 5 minutes and apart from that we have had no problems whatosever.

delandh · #9 03-02-05, 16:50

The problem with this issue is that we have not yet found a definitive answer to the question.

There is a mis-conception that leaving for Gib or Morroco for a day or two "resets the clock". This we do know is NOT true. We have been trying to find the proper legal answer to this difficult question and found that no two answers are the same. What we have found though from Spanish tax consultants is that if you are in the country for more than 183 days or more you are deemed as a "Spanish resident for tax purposes" and all that this entails, but of course this only happens if you either declare yourself or you get caught! This tax status includes re- registering your UK flagged boat to Spanish which you must do.

If you go to a Spanish marina with an ESP registered boat you also have to have the equivalent of an RYA qualification. This involves doing a Spanish course in spanish but if you don't speak ESP then what do you do. Is there a way of converting your UK qualification to Spanish?

I agree it is easier to keep your head down low and you might be left alone but if you are caught then the consequenses can be serious as mentioned in a paper published by the Cruising Association. Are there any other Spanish or UK tax consultants looking at this forum and this question.

DJ

Bambola · #10 04-02-05, 08:48

I think you are saying that staying 183 days in a single 12 months in Spain means you have to register as a Spanish resident? Is that correct? Less than half a year?

It seems to me very very diffuclt for the Spanish Authorities to prove this unless you make the declaration yourself... I have frequently spent large amounts of a year (certainly more than 183 days in a year) in Spain - driven in and out - flown and sailed in and out.... No passports no checks at any frontier.

Really cannot belive this is a serious problem.

Anyone who got into problems with this ruling must have done something very silly to get caught unless they had settled in Spain and were using their boats as house boats permanently in a marina without moving.

trouville · #11 04-02-05, 10:05

This thread is going round in circels. Someone wants to hear that they can stay as a tourist in Spain for more than 6months.
As we are Europeans and voted for Brussels and its rules, we cant.
If Your from outside Europe you can apply for an extended visa,but may still have to pay local taxes.
As British subjects,and now europeans, we can live anywhere in Europe, however after 6 months "trial period" we must either leave or integrate,(tax contribution wise) making the new contry our main address and the uk our "weekend" address
There are benifits and disadvantages. In France for example we have to pay taxes and contributions, however your family gets health care schools and a pleasent enviroment,and up to now dont have to pay speeding or parking fines incured in the UK or Belgium as yet!!
You really have to look at your personal situation and choose a place to be domisiled, later if that place remains the UK but you find yourself in spain or else where for more than 6 months in one year, just do it quitly. Vote from the UK dont drive a car and try to avoid renting property, or a boats place from a non private port,on a yearly basis.
Just sit back, enjoy the sun,and dont look for problems,and keep your admin in one place.

Just a note, on the disadvantages side i was recently in Cogolin visiting and parked in a no parking area, when i came back i had a ticket,from the local police,i noticed that only the French registed cars had tickets not the forign ones, as the policewoman was there i asked why, she said firstly she had almost run out of forms,and secondly the foregn cars dont always pay,unless they are controled for somthing later in France.

delandh · #12 04-02-05, 20:28

The point is being missed somewhat and the discussion is drifting into the relms of tax etc. First there is no question of avoiding the tax. If you become a Spanish resident and own a UK flaged boat you MUST re register the boat on a Spanish flag and yes you MUST pay 12% matriculation tax (registration tax) It is the same as owning a UK registered car and becoming a Spanish resident. You must re-register your car. This is not VAT, it is a tax on re flagging the boat and to be avoided at your own peril.

The question asked was "Can you convert your RYA qualification into a Spanish one" remember that if you have reflagged your boat to Spanish you will be required by Spanish marinas to show a Spanish boating qualification which can only be obtained after doing and passing a course in Spanish. We do speak a bit of Spanish, but there is a difference between knowing everyday Spansh and technical sailing terms enough to pass a written paper (which is required).

DJ

mogy · #13 03-02-05, 21:28

Hi I live in Galicia and I would be careful about staying over time.Iam a resident and have to abide by Spanish laws.There is toomuch paperpushing herer and very little common sense,to buy a boat in the uk second hand and take and keep it in Spain I would have to paytaxes and have the boatsurveyed and have a full stability test done.There is no real answer to this but asking at the proper office and getting it writing.DONT THINK THEY WONT SEE YOU . Just keep sailing!!

Bambola · #14 04-02-05, 09:02

Just re-read your basic question - Provided you do not give up your UK residency you can keep your boat registered as a british ship and sail it under british legislation using only british certificates ( or none of course for UK residents)

Provided tax has been paid on a boat in any EU country that covers the boat for every EU country.

Whilst you cannot be taxed twice on the same income certainly the social security payments in countries like Spain and France do continue until you die. In reality they are similar to UK national insurance stamps and cost roughly the same (around £1000 PA) for a couple and are obligitory!

To be fair if you put down roots in another country and expect to use their medical facilities and other social benefits I think it is not unreasonable to pay the same as everyone else. In France the medical system is so much better than the UK that I do not begrudge a penny of the money.

delandh · #15 04-02-05, 20:33

Hello

You are talking about VAT here which is not the issue. The issue is regarding converting RYA qualifications to a Spanish equivalent once you have reflagged your boat which you have to do if you become a resident. You are deemed a resident after 183 days in a calender year, ie over 6 months. in the country. Going to the uk or Gib for a day or two does not reset the clock....

D

Bambola · #16 04-02-05, 20:48

But are you becoming non UK resident - that is a different decision!

As far as I am aware you may become a resident of spain for local tax purposes but does that require you to become a UK non resident? I think not...

If you are still a uk resident then the boat can remain as a UK registered vessel and sail by you under UK flag and rules.....

delandh · #17 04-02-05, 21:01

We pay uk tax and insurance but would like to spend more than 183 days in a calander year in spain. What would our residance status be. As far as I'm aware you cant be resident in two places

DJ

Bambola · #18 05-02-05, 09:58

I think the point is 'the spanish would consider you resident for TAX PURPOSES'. You should not give up your UK residency - it is a hassel and the slight tax advantages do not really out weigh the boaty benefits - not having to comform with other countries regs-.

What the Spanish and French are trying to avoid is people working 'black' in their economy - fair enough. If you do end up in spain for longer than the 183 days or whatever and for some reason they decide to 'make' subscribe to their system you just do so - I can see no reason why you have to give up UK residency..... And with that the boat is UK flagged and your boaty problems vanish..... You pay into the spanish social security system and get the benefits...

Ask the foreign office in the UK - I bet they have a web site and help line - I do assure you there is no international communication of the residency situations of nationals of the different members of the EU and the rules are deeply complex...

bbilly · #19 05-02-05, 15:25

Within the EU there are agreements between the various states to avoid "double taxation". That is if you are paying your tax in the UK you won't have to pay again in Spain and viceversa. As far as residency is concerned I belive it's probabaly as in Italy where you have "domicile" (where you live), "residency" (your official residency ) that can differ from domicile and "fiscal residency" (where your tax bill arrives and what LOCAL taxes are due as these may differ from region to region). By logic if you live 183 days (more than 1/2 year) in the UK you pay taxes there and so not in Spain and as before viceversa. I'm not a tax expert so this is all tongue in cheek but I believe that within the EU there is a certain "harmonization".

Will Power

lezgar · #20 06-02-05, 14:46

You don't have any tax when you register your boat under Spanish flag if you can prove that VAT have been paid and you aply no later 1 month after became resident. READ THE SPANISH LAW HERE

If you have a British sailing cualification you can ask in Capitania Maritima for to be recognize with Spanish equivalent (only for EU members) READ THE SPANISH LAW HERE

Grehan · #21 10-03-05, 08:40

We're in Spain. Have lived on our boat (currently in Marbella) and also our house (currently, although we'll be back on board soon). We've applied for a Residencia (yesterday, actually) which is advisable for property tax reasons. The Residencia will take at least six months to come through because the system is overloaded, so don't worry too much about being found out if you 'overstay' the 183, or whatever it is or isn't, days.

The fear we have is that if our boat has to be re-registered in Spain (which I do understand is the law or the regulation whatever) then it is also assessed for tax purposes (VAT/IVA or purchase tax or something) and a tax payment levied. Could be substantial.

However, this is Spain folks.

Where no self respecting teenager wears a crash helmet or pilots his scooter in anything other than a completely suicidal manner. Like lots of the car drivers. If you think the jetskis around Chichester harbour are annoying, come here!
Where the country people do not trust banks and keep their dosh under the mattress (think of what their peasant smallholdings and run-down olive groves are now worth!).
Where drug trafficers and illegal immigrants populate the waters and occupy the Guadia Civil's time and efforts.

If you don't irritate the Spanish enforcement system or draw attention to yourself it will generally leave you alone. And that's best, 'cause it's fearsomely impolite and fearsomely bureaucratic.

The advice to take advice is good advice but the problem is finding any kind of knowledgeable advice about things 'on the ground' (as opposed to how the law is worded).