The Croatian Government aree really pushing their luck now.....

[steve_cronin]

They want their waters reserved exclusively for Croatian charter companies and local private boats it seems.

If you are a foreigner keeping your boat there "...your total number of visitors on board for a whole year must not exceed the total number of berths on the boat." How do you know how many friends you are going to invite to go sailing in a season.

Deny them entry to the EU if that's their attitude.

Steve Cronin

[castlevar]

Hi Steve
Where are you getting this info from we are based in Ostia near Rome and hoping to go Malta ( for duty free fuel ) then to Croatia for a month.
Then hopefully to crete for next winter however if there is going to be a problem in Croatia we will consider not going there would be interested in any more info on this point.

[steve_cronin]

Join the CA. It's on MedNet.

Also I've just noticed that there is an article in both YM & YW this month

Steve Cronin

[Metabarca]

There's a link to this news at the top of my page (link below). It's not quite as horrific as Steve makes out. The aim of the Croatians is simply to stop non Croatian-registered chartering. I really don't think it'll be an issue for private boats.

[charles_reed]

to whip them into shape.

How dare they try and prevent us foreign freeloaders from exploiting their coastline.

Fancy demanding that you purchase a vignette for over €100 and spell out who are the crew members.

Getting nearly as bad as the Greeks. They were soon put in their place. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[charles_reed]

for that bit of information.

Perhaps I'm not paranoid enough.

It appears that they're expecting yachts in transit to obtain a vignette which appears to be in breach of international Maritime Law.

[trouville]

sounds as if its reterning to normal used to cost $1000 pa and just a down payment at that. Great coastline, but like all great things there s just to much discontentment and jelousy.Great place rotten atmospher

[MapisM]

I read this post of yours, one month ago or so.
At that time, I wondered about your reasons for trying to put off forum members from cruising in that country. But I didn't mind actually.
To me, less boats cruising that coast, just mean more quiet spots for anchoring in beautiful places.
Now, what I really can't understand is why you keep saying they are not good enough for Europe ("...behave like the European country it aspires to be", "Deny them entry to the EU...")?
Are you honestly convinced that, just as an example, UK or Switzerland are so much more "EU-oriented" than Croatia?... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[steve_cronin]

What was reported in the yachting press and what people on the ground there say isn't true then?

Steve Cronin

[walker]

Not sure Metabarca. According to Noonsite, the double the capacity limit on the crew list can only be exceeded in exceptional circumstances. In our case, with a boat share between 4 partners, the crew list for the partners and immediate family will exceed that figure, before we even think about guests. I have sought clarification from the Croatian Ministry of Sea and Maritime Affairs and if I get anything useful I will post it here, but it looks as though we may be forced to move on, which I presume will be an unintended consequence of the new regulations.

[steve_cronin]

I hardly feel like posting on these forums anymore.

Some cynic is always ready to jump to conclusions about one's intentions. Eh Charles?

Maybe this was a crudely fashioned regulation but a country's international reputation is judged by the way it treats it's own and other countries' peoples. There is still a bit of the commissar about "reformed" communist states' officials IMO.

Steve Cronin

[MedMan]

The new regulations have recently disappeared from the Croatian Tourist Board website. However, this is what they said:

"Harbourmaster's Office/Branch Office shall issue the vignette on the bases of following documentation the master/skipper is due to provide:

Crew List which includes crew and passengers, to be endorsed by Harbourmaster's Office or its Branch Office; If the master/skipper of the craft does not intend to exchange crew or passengers during the stay of the craft in Croatia and during the validity of the vignette, he does not have further reporting obligations to Harbourmasters Office or its Branch Office. Master or skipper of the craft may disembark the crew or passengers in Croatia providing that relevant report has been submitted to Harbourmaster's Office/Branch Office and providing that the craft has left Croatian sea waters with crew and passengers reported as above.

List of Persons Yachtsmen may replace crew and passengers during the stay of the craft in Croatia providing the 'List of Persons' has been filled in and submitted to Harbourmaster's Office or Branch Office upon the entry to nearest port. The number of persons shown on the List of Persons must not exceed doubled total number of persons the craft is designed to carry. Nevertheless, if on the occasion of obtaining a vignette, due to justified reasons, you are not able to determine all the persons you anticipate will stay on board during the period of the validity of the vignette, under the approval of harbourmaster's office all other persons may be entered in the List of Persons during the first embarkment of new members of the crew. Exceptionally, under the approval of harbourmaster's office List of Persons may be extended up to 30% of the capacity of the craft provided the owner of the craft remains on board.

Craft for which the List of Persons is completed (up to the allowed number of persons) has no further reporting obligations to harbourmaster's office regarding the exchange of persons named on the List. Number of exchanges of persons listed is not limited.

If you are in the situation you have to embark a non-listed person instead of one that is on the List of Persons, prior to leaving the port you also need to report to the Harbourmaster's Office or Branch Office in order to appropriately amend the List of Persons. Persons staying on board the craft while in port or on anchorage need not be reported."

As our boat is too small for visitors these new regulations will not affect us one jot. However, for those who welcome a succession of visitors throughout the season it could prove to be a serious problem.

I feel sure that the way forward is polite and patient representation. During our visit in 2000/2001 we found the Croatian officials to be more helpful and less bureaucratic than anywhere else in the Med. If they have over-looked a group of yachtsmen in their understandable wish to control un-licensed charter, I feel sure that they will be anxious to put that right.

[Metabarca]

I agree; they now have the paperwork to deal with 'illegal' chartering but I doubt they will use the new rules to bash ordinary yacht-owners. They have quickly learned how to earn a buck! So, Walker, I would have thought that you would clearly fall into one of the 'exceptional circumstances'.
I aired this news at my yacht club here in Trieste, and the general consensus was 'ho hum, yawn'. ie little change expected. I shall report back: I'll be cruising that way in April or May. If you don't hear from me lads, send the gunboat!

[woolly]

This may be a load of nothing but historically this area is prone to nationalist fervour. Before the whole lot went up last time the Croatians voted in a nationalist government which imposed ridiculously high taxes on any foreigner owning property in Croatia (Croatia for the Croatians). The result was a total collapse in the property market, houses being sole for 1/10 - 1/20 of their market value. After the war a more considerate and internationally aware regime was voted in for a while, Recently the Croatians vote back in a nationalist government. They aspire to EU membership, which hopefully will moderate any nationalist tendencies.

[branko]

I must react on few constatations :
New regulation is only because of black charter and private crew(s) will not have any problems as they havent in the past.
Nationalismus in Croatia is not bigger than in any other country.
Croatia doesnt have Nationalist government .
Entering in EU is National goal even 50 % of habitants thinks opposite.
Outside opservation of Croatia is not so good in history as ex Yugoslavian diplomatic lobbies have stronger influence outside - specialy in UK.
Croatia have 2000 years of European culture and is not smart to say " leave them out ! "
Croatia can give to Europe more than vice versa my dear friends!

Hello Branko, the problem is that the regulations do not say that they do not apply to 'private crews', and it is impossible for an official to know whether any money has been paid or not by the crew. So foreign yachts will be entirely in the hands of local officials, who would be in a good position to make problems for (even try to extort money out of) foreign yachts for alleged breaches. The regulations in effect make it difficult for foreign yachts to visit Croatia.

And why should foreign yachts not be allowed to charter in Croatia anyway? There is nothing to stop Croatians from chartering out yachts in Britain, or other European countries. We do not recognise the idea of a 'black charter market'.

This is why you find the angry reaction. If the Croatian authorities think that they can get away with this sort of thing, then it is not unreasonable that reciprocal arrangements should be imposed restricting the ability of Croatian yachts to visit other European countries, and restricting the abilities of Croatians to do business in other European countries.

[MedMan]

[ QUOTE ]
And why should foreign yachts not be allowed to charter in Croatia anyway? There is nothing to stop Croatians from chartering out yachts in Britain, or other European countries. We do not recognise the idea of a 'black charter market'.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm afraid that you are quite wrong in this statement. There are severe restrictions on 'black chartering' in virtually all European Countries. Indeed, in many, including nearby Greece, all charter boats must be locally registered i.e. they cannot charter under a foreign flag. By contrast, Croatia allows charter fleets under foreign flags so long as they are registered with them. Thus, Sailing Holidays, a UK Company, operate a charter fleet in Croatia all flying the red ensign.

I realise that Greece is an exception which there has been much controversy about - I have followed from a distance, so I am sure that you know much more of the details than me. But I am surprised to hear that there are restrictions in other countries - do you mean that it is illegal for Croatian yachts to charter in Britain? I would have thought that provided they were properly coded as complying with our safety regulations then there would be no restrictions?

If this is a discussion about whether Croatian authorities should have the right to ensure that all charter yachts should be registered with them as complying with Croatian safety regs, then it is absolutely reasonable that the Croatian authorities should have the right to take measures to ensure that all charter yachts comply.

But as I understand it the new regulations apply to foreign yachts only. If it became illegal for ALL yachts, including Croatian ones, to carry more than the specified number of people a year, then the regulation would be stupid, but not discriminatory. As it is drawn (unless it has been wrongly or incompletely translated into English, which is possible) it is stupid AND discriminatory.

[branko]

Thanks to Retreat crew for answer to Simon and for perfect pilot true Mediterranian waters which helps a lot. Croatia is not different than other countries. I , as croatian citizen, can not come to England (or any other country) and make any bussiness without paying tax!
I agree with everybody that entering fee (vigneta) is too expencive. Marinas prices are high too. We, Croatians , does not have vignetas but we have yearly taxes and it is same. So, as we live here we must pay those high prices every day and are angry also.
But I try to understand Croatian Government .Last year ,during summer months, more than 7000 boats were every day in Croatian waters.It is too much "vehicles for this road" and what government can do to regulate this trafic.
1.Cut off black charter(as it not hurt anybody except black charters- 2000 boats )
2. Increase prices
Those measures I read as EU regulations!
I think that this new Law regulation is not good solution and they will change it when they feel next summer new problems created because of Law.
So, as we felt a lot of trubles in Greece few years ago, Croatian government will iterate this regulation to be acceptable and compatible with EU regulations.
But ....needs time!
Till that, You will be very wellcome and be sure there will be not fines or unpolite measures to our visitors. Problems we shell solve together with help of best Croatian wine!

[branko]

No,Simon.Yacht under Croatian flag must pay every year concession for charter bussines. For boat 12 m it costd about 2200 quids, but profit (or better income) from charter is about 18000 quids.
Is it more understandable now why croatian government would like to regulate black charter.

Thank you to you and Medman for clarifying for the likes of me that it's about collecting taxes from foreign yachts, not about restricting (legal) foreign chartering. No doubt as you say they'll eventually work out a way of doing it that doesn't put off foreign yachts from visiting Croatia. That bottle of wine does sound tempting [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]))

[heerenleed]

And you did not even mention the French, who still manage to impose rediculous papers no other country accepts like the Lettre de Pavillon. Quite idiotic. From the 1st of january 2006 this is going to change. But up to then, don't try and go to France without it....

And in Switzerland, you know, the thief is not welcome... But the lute is......

You cannot take pets with you to the UK. Yes you can, but only by ferry or by plane. You know why? To avoid rabies in the UK. But the UK never was rabies free.. Quite rediculous, too. But what can you do? Either accept it, or don't go there. And that goes for Croatia as well as any other country.

I think that former communist countries only very slowly manage to say good-bye to old-days bureaucracy. They will, though, eventually.

cheers

[Metabarca]

The border as a physical barrier between Slovenia and Croatia is a recent, post-Yugoslavia invention. Under Yugoslavia, it was invisible; under Italy (pre 1945), it was invisible; under Austria-Hungary (pre 1918), it was invisible. Under the sovereign states until last year, the main roads had border controls, BUT a few of the secondary roads did not, and the border was invisible (and this was a great way to avoid the hordes of tourists clogging the main roads, although technically not really allowed!). Now that Slovenia is in the EU, not only do all the roads have border posts, but only the local residents are allowed to use the secondary ones. There's progress for you!
The point being, where there's a way, the bureaucrats (from east or west) will find a way of blocking it!
[img]/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[branko]

Agree. Borders are rest of last century political decisions. Governments have much better ways to colect taxes or catching drug dealers.
Borders are reasons for wars in the past.
Today, they stops traffic and are expencive plus they tear in human rights!
Let them out !

[walker]

This is the response we got from our marina in Croatia when we asked whether we would be able to update the crew list during the season.

"The new procedure is:you will have to go to the Port Master Office and there apply
for the VIGNETE ( permit ) and all necessary documents will be issue by the Port capt.
It is true that the crew should be registered at the beginning of the season ,
but we hope and believe that sonn of this regulations will be changed.
Best regards ,"

Sounds like there may already be a bit of a backlash against the law, but who knows how long a change would take were it to happen. I expect that if harbourmasters know that the law is bad and to be changed they will generally take a relaxed view, but it does still leave open the possibility for individual HMs to make trouble if they feel so inclined.

In our case I think we will submit a crew list of the co-owners and families and hope to get guests added ad hoc during the season. In my case the only guests we definitely have joining us include a member of a prominent Croatian family and I am hopeful that should smooth the way, but I would be very anxious taking anyone else and not knowing whether we could embark them without risking a fine (or worse).

I fully respect the Croatian government's right to try to control illegal chartering but hope they will find a way to do so that does not penalise the growing number of people like us who choose to buy a share in a boat rather than chartering.

[gwennols]

I have just arrived back from croatia this evening.
having been to view my new boat i brought in january
i have always found the croatian people very welcoming, and very helpful.
they put us english to shame as they all speak english and if they dont they phone someone who does.
buying the boat from another croatian was very easy and all the offical paper work was available quikly and easily.
i welcome the fact that they try to police the waters as hopefully this leads to safe voyages.
we were able to add crew members as the year went on last year .
we are lucky in that we will not have more than double berth capicity in one year.
i think it is a pity that this post has been so negative towards croatia
but i welcome the fact that they maybe less crowded waters in the high season.
because it really is a beautiful country with great people.

[more]

Quote:
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And why should foreign yachts not be allowed to charter in croatia anyway? There is nothing to stop croatians from chartering out yachts in Britain, or other European countries. We do not recognise the idea of a 'black charter market'.


How many Croatian boat owners in their right mind would leave their magical waters to go sailing in Britain?? yuk, one way traffic only!

[branko]

Problem is in coast capacity! This is not one way traffic.This is "multiple one way traffic" on same location.